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amwritingmeta · 4 years ago

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hey! i was just wondering if you think spn will actually make destiel canon by the finale? it seems like in interviews they're trying to let us down gently w/a cas death (which possibly makes it seem like cas's ending might be related to his empty deal?) + all the parallels between saileen and deancas, and it looks like dabb and co (while not rly bringing arcs into conclusion and generally making a mess of spn) are fighting to make it canon, i was wondering what ur take on it was, esp after ep09

Oh, my dear, my heart is swelling with love for those two right now. I just watched the show through from 12x19-15x13 and I swear, that moment they share in 15x12, clinking those glasses and sharing all those smiles was like balm. It’s not even five minutes of screen time, and still it was like, okay, yes, good, thank you for the room to breathe. :D

It seems to be that Cas hearing Dean’s prayer has ushered in some much earned peace between them. They’re shown to be on the same page and taking each other’s side unquestionably. Dean trusting Cas’ judgment regarding Jack without pause. And that’s a good word for it: there’s trust between them, mutual respect, understanding. It’s so lovely, isn’t it?

So, there’s this line that’s sort of stuck with me. Actually, there are two things that have stuck with me (apart from all the gorgeous symbology baked into every episode) and it’s that the word “complete” has been mentioned twice.

Once in reference to Mary in Heaven, and once by Amara in reference to God.

Then we have a line that’s recurred twice: I had to die to get what I want.

The fact that its spoken verbatim twice made my antennas perk up a bit. It may mean nothing, as some things in this narrative sometimes do mean nothing, but it’s still interesting to take these things into account: that we’re searching for completion and that sometimes, in order to get what you want, you have to die.

So. Will Cas die?

I don’t think so. I don’t think so for many reasons that I’ve laid out here (I just posted this) (it was like you read my mind that this was coming today), but foremost because I cannot see how him dying does anything for his character arc, or for his joint journey with Dean.

You know, dark!Kaia (Kaia’s Shadow) going back to the Bad Place (Kaia’s unconscious) and accepting the ending waiting there, releasing our!Kaia back to the world where she belongs, makes me think, more than ever, that the integration of the main character’s Shadows are a necessity.

The Empty, way I see it, is representative of Cas’ Shadow, his unconscious, all the repressed and suppressed emotions of guilt, shame and doubt that has kept his self-worth down until Jack came on the scene.

And this is just my reading of this situation, but I’m not sure I can see Cas defeating the Empty in the Empty, if you know what I mean? The last time Cas intruded, the Empty made him suffer greatly. I don’t think Cas holds any sway there, nor should he.

To me, the weapon our conscious has against our unconscious ruling our decisions, is our ability to grow aware of our own impulses, our own thought patterns, and making choices to break away from them.

I think Cas can only beat the Empty through making a choice and, well, for a long time I’ve felt that choice should be to become human, because by making a final choice of who he is and who he wants to be, he brings himself into awareness, integrating his Shadow in the process, and narratively nullifying the Empty’s hold on him, since humans don’t go to the Empty when they die: they go to Heaven.

But that’s wishing and hoping and speculation, of course.

Here’s where the Destiel question comes in though.

Do I believe they’ll make it canon?

Personally, I can’t think of anything more a part of our story than the love story between those two, but I know what you mean. You mean a representative, tangible, clear, statement type of making it canon. Textualising it, so that there’s no room for doubt whatsoever. No more arguments, no more queer baiting complaints, just Destiel in plain sight. Undeniable.

I do and I don’t.

Watching these last few seasons through again made me realise what a different feel to them this last season has, because the emotional stakes for Dean and Cas have everything to do with what they mean to each other. Yeah?

Dean taking his anger out on Cas and it pushing Cas into a turning point where he chose to leave, to move on, which was a moment of clear independence a statement of his sense of self-worth, and it in turn pushing Dean into a turning point where he faced a side to himself that he’s needed to name since forever, admitting to not having any control of himself, which is something he has to acknowledge if he’s to move into trusting himself fully, all of this has been gosh darn breathtaking to get to witness.

And having them land back in this ease, where they work together seamlessly as a team, being kept together more than not, the framing of them, all of this makes me feel like they could give us canon Destiel. I’m not going to say they absolutely won’t.

I believe the writers want it. I believe the actors want it. But, again, that’s just what I take from the narrative itself, because the subtext is stronger than ever this final season.

Especially with Sam and Eileen being reunited.

Because it’s been that clear parallel you mentioned, but it’s been that clear parallel to those of us who see it. The echoes of the Saileen romance that trace through the Destiel progression won’t be as resounding to those that don’t.

And because of that, at this point, I also feel quite reserved with my belief that Destiel could become canon. Because there’s so much, but there’s also nothing. There’s so much for us to enjoy, there’s so much evidence they keep throwing at us that the writers support this reading of their story, but still, there’s nothing, really, to let on that they’re building towards these two men, at some point, declaring their love for each other.

There has been zero textual foreshadowing of that.

There have been throw away moments, like the cop flirting with Dean, for example, but he frowned at that, and then got sincerely flirted with by a woman, so that deescalated that very quickly.

There was Dean at first rejecting Garth’s compliment of “You smell SO good”, becoming uncomfortable, to then, by the end of the ep, tell Garth he didn’t smell half-bad either.

And there was that amazing moment with Cas calling out Sam being “sexually intimate” with Ruby and Dean repeating the words as if he can’t believe Cas even knows how to pronounce them.

So, there’s... you know, stuff?

But it’s not foreshadowing if it can be overlooked by the wider audience.

That said.

This show isn’t about this love story of ours. The fact that it’s so downplayed could mean that what we’ll get is something textual, but extremely subtle. I mean, for me, lingering eye-contact and a shared smile in a context that makes us understand they’re choosing each other would be enough.

If, by canon, you mean do I think we’ll get them kissing, then the answer is I want to believe that we might get that, because they could build towards that on the foundation of ease and trust that they’ve put down over the last few episodes and they could build it effectively, but I just don’t know if the studio (who own the characters) is onboard.

My hope is that they are, because the topic of healthy representation is so hot right now, and the question of the longevity of Supernatural to the younger generations (you know, you young ones who are proving exceedingly more open-minded and looking for something beyond the superficial brothers-hunting-monsters aspect of the show) would bank on the show opening itself up to the possibilities of solid representation already seeded throughout its run.

But Dean has flirted with more women than men this season. You know? I mean, he hasn’t flirted with any men. So.

Look, I’m not going to say I don’t think we’ll get it, because I don’t know.

I watched S15 yesterday and finished it today and suddenly I feel this wave of hope that it actually might happen, because they’ve already changed how Dean and Cas interact, they’ve given them so many scenes with just the two of them, and we have Sam clearly meant to end up with Eileen, and doesn’t Dean and Cas deserve that same happiness? That same sense of completion? That internal peace of loving unconditionally and being loved in return?

Sam and Eileen could be foreshadowing. These writers are subtle and they could be gleefully rubbing their hands together at the thought of springing textual Destiel on the GA, you know? The green light from the studio might make them diabolical. *sadism* And I love that thought.

Because that’s been the point of the love story for me, this slow, slow build to the moment when Dean and Cas have reached a point in their progression when what they’ll have together is a healthy, balanced, loving relationship because they’ve both let go of the past and are looking to the future.

But I won’t expect textual Destiel. If we do get it, I’m going to treasure it as a big cherry on top of an already perfectly inviting and exquisite pie.

What I do believe, more than ever, that we’re getting, though, is closure. Even if it’s only at the subtextual level, I believe that those of us who read the subtext will have Destiel verified beyond a shadow of a doubt. And yes, I will be quite surprised and disappointed if we don’t get that. Because of how these first 13 episodes have been shaped and how strong the subtext is in them.

I believe we’ll end on a hopeful note.

And wouldn’t that just be gratifyingly phenomenal?

(it really would) (honestly I just need to know that they are happy and alive and together and well and finding peace and carrying on) (you know?) (thank you and amen) :)

#answered asks #spn s15 spec #cas #dean #destiel #deancas #canon #oh I have the hopes #just not the expectations #:)

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amwritingmeta · 7 years ago

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My dear, you are the most interesting writer of the fandom. I truly believe without knowing you in person that you are a fine human being. This I'm asking you, because I recall a piece of Meta you wrote almost a year ago about how it will be difficult to make Destiel Canon, because of the nature of show business. Now, about your last post of the color purple. Let me ask you honestly, you don't think at some point that all this things are a proof of queerbating if Destiel doesn't go Canon? Thanks

Hello, lovely Nonny! And oh wow *blushes violently* that’s one helluva compliment. And I must stress that I’m the most average human being to ever average! But thank you for saying such sweet things! Jeez Louise what a way to spend a Sunday! :D

And omg what a callback to the early days! I do remember that post, actually. It was in response to a queerbaiting discussion, but I cannot find the original to save my life so I’ll just run with it:

I do need to clarify that I believe what I said wasn’t that it is/will be/would be difficult to make Destiel canon because of the nature of show business, but rather that our fucked up world, and what it means for a show to launch itself with a queer lead, has informed how Dean Winchester and his presentation has been handled in the media and by the cast and writers/show runners.

And, naturally, how Dean Winchester is presented must inform how Destiel is handled as well. Because Dean is our protagonist.

I mean, this is my theory here and I cannot prove a single word of it, so take all of this with grains of salt - all I can give you is what makes sense to me when looking at the narrative and what I see as the intent of that narrative.

Whether Dean was always meant to be the protagonist, or meant to be the secondary character to Sam’s protagonist (roles which are established in the Pilot), is of little consequence here, what matters is that you can trace bi-Dean back to the Pilot. That side to his personality is present in the Pilot. Dean was always meant to be queer coded. Why not overtly so?

Well, the way I see: the show wanted a predominantly male audience for a reason. Because the show is about deconstructing the masculine ideal and teaching boys and men that denying who you are based on the terribly old-fashioned belief that “feelings make you weak” is not only wrong, but detrimental because the truth is this –>

–> you choose who to be, and you can be ANYONE YOU IDENTIFY YOURSELF AS

–> no one can ever tell you it’s wrong

–> there is no weird, everyone’s normal in their own way

–> and what makes a “man” is not fucking defined by the social norm bullshit of patriarchal gender oppression!!

*and breathe*

Granted, had the show actually ended in S5, this message wouldn’t have been as impactful as it is now, after thirteen years of character journey and evolution, after thirteen years of self denial and fear of happiness. But had the show ended in S5 I’m still convinced we could’ve gotten a reflection of what we’re driving towards now.

S5 could easily have climaxed with Sam and Dean ending the codependency, and Dean - instead of mistrusting Sam being able to defeat Lucifer - actually letting him go, letting him grow up, telling him “you got this”

It could easily have ended with a different angle on Cas’ arc, set up in S4 with Anna and echoed in 5x04 with Endverse human!Cas, where Cas actually chooses to give up his grace and ends up human for that final fight (not just rendered powerless and human-esque after carving that sigil into his chest)

And with Cas human, he would not have gone back to Heaven, we would have ended with Cas and Dean in the Impala, and I can see how the flirting that Dean tries to start up in 5x03 with the Thelma and Louise moment could’ve been built on throughout the season to TELL us that Dean is undeniable attracted to Cas and that it runs deeper than that and, once Cas chose humanity, they would’ve given us this love story in text for the end of the season because Cas would recognise his own feelings as well

And, you know, we could’ve gotten Sam back - the search for God and the hopelessness it rendered ending in God revealing himself and repaying Sam’s sacrifice with life and freedom…

Because S5 is all about daddy issues in need of resolution and the codependency between the brothers highlighted (as it is in most seasons of course)

But, be aware, this is truly, truly just me seeing possibilities in the structure of the narrative and hell, I’m not going to pretend I actually know the mind of Eric Kripke, yeah? Yeah, no.

But I honestly, truly believe the pattern of Dean’s bisexuality is there for a narrative reason, which means the reason I got into the queerbaiting discussion was to refute the claims and state my disagreement with them, because you can’t call it queerbaiting when the narrative function of this incredibly important character detail is hit on again and again and again on the show.

It’s not there for the shits and giggles, you know? It’s not there as some sort of hook for the LGBTQ community. It is a key component of Dean Winchester’s character makeup and it’s at the heart of the reason why he ever needed to go through this journey in the first place, this journey of opening up to love and to being loved for who he is by letting go of his preconceived notions of who he has to be, notions that it’s established in canon have been informed by toxic masculinity.

And this is one of the most powerful why-hearts of any story: searching for one’s true identity and, in doing so, having to face one’s deepest fears and conquer them.

The deconstruction of the masculine ideal is being done through Dean finding a reason to shed his toxic masculinity, and this reason is tied to his love for Cas.

Could this have been done with Cas being a woman? YES! That’s the whole point for me.

Cas’ gender is not important for Dean’s character progression or the role Cas plays in ensuring it - Cas the CHARACTER and his PERSONALITY are what’s important. The way these two men compliment each other emotionally are what’s important. The way they challenge and push and support each other’s growth is what’s important. This is why it has always been a love story - from first frame of footage. (to my mind) (I know not everyone agrees with this assessment)

And the POINT of Cas being a man instead of a woman is, for me, that it pushes the deconstruction of the masculine ideal to its very breaking point, because the ideal is idiotic and prescribes to societal norms that, honestly, are beginning to flake at the edges in modern society as is, thank goodness.

The ideal is gender normative - men are men and women are women and everything is black and white and straightforward. So to build Dean Winchester into the epitome of the masculine ideal - the man’s man, the stud, the cowboy, the hero - and have him still retain all the qualities that make him that man’s man, that stud, that cowboy, that hero - while also softening him and opening him up and revealing that deep emotional life and all that longing for love and communication and equality and all the personality traits he’s always possessed (and we’ve always seen them) that, according to societal norm, are considered feminine, well, that’s a deconstruction of the masculine ideal worth writing home to grandma about, know what I’m saying?

Consider a woman being the one to open him up to love. Well, we kind of got that with Lisa, didn’t we? Only she wasn’t real. She was a representation of what Dean wants for himself: home love family - but she was, in the end, proven an illusion. Dean was not happy playing house: because he was playing house, still stuck in playing a part he never chose for himself because of course Dean Winchester was never meant to give up the life. The reason he’s broken and lost isn’t that he was raised a hunter (saving people gives his life great meaning and purpose), but that he’s stuck performing.

So what if Cas was a woman?

Yeah. He could’ve been a woman. But the fact that Cas is a man adds a layer to Dean’s search for his true identity that would otherwise be lost. Without the love story being Dean falling for a man, they have no real narrative way to highlight his bisexuality without baking it into the narrative simply to have him be a bisexual character. Make sense?

And they didn’t build Dean as overtly bisexual because if they had:

he would have been immediately put in a character niche and the audience they want to appeal to –>

the audience that believes in the masculine ideal as truth, or that are subconsciously influenced by it daily –>

that audience would’ve been lost to them –>

because they would’ve thought “gay” and switched channel –>

no matter how man’s man and heroic Dean Winchester still is with that pink/purple/blue label across his chest

Men enjoying following the story of a man who is attracted to other men will make the men following that story question why they enjoy it, and no man’s man wants to start wondering about their own sexuality. (yup that is a generalisation but one that is based in truth no?)

“Liking bisexual Dean Winchester might mean I’m gay. So thanks but no thanks. Moving on.”

Like I said: societal norms = stupidity. Okay, actually, that’s not fair or true. The societal norms equal narrow mindedness and fear. And this is always forgivable, because it’s addressable and changeable.

But this is also the reason why Dean is not canonically in our faces bisexual. (though he might as well be) (like sheesh doesn’t take a magnifying glass)

And this ^^^ is why Cas needs to be a man. Because it completes the deconstruction of the masculine ideal to such a degree, while retaining Dean Winchester’s already established characteristics, because Dean will still be all Dean once he’s actually with Cas, that the question of “What makes a man a man?” should be a resounding one.

Is Dean Winchester not a badass, brave and tough as nails hero simply because he has softer sides and fancies dudes - one dude in particular?

Of. course. he. fucking. is.

You are a man because you identify as a man; liking flowery wallpaper and crying your eyes out to Charlotte’s Web does not somehow transform you into something other or lesser than a man. Like… WHERE THE FUCK DID THIS IDEA EVEN COME FROM WHY DOES ANYONE ADHERE TO IT SOMETIMES I JUST

Now, about your last post of the color purple. Let me ask you honestly, you don’t think at some point that all this things are a proof of queerbating if Destiel doesn’t go Canon?

Yeah, so why am I going into great detail to clarify my stance on the structure of this narrative and the approach to Destiel through the presentation of Dean Winchester as the masculine ideal? To answer this ^^^^^ part of your ask!

Because all of the above statements and my view on how this narrative has been built, the way the characters have been built, the way all of it fits together, including my colour theory that you mention :), all of it is the reason why I argue so strongly against the queerbaiting allegations.

And it’s why I cannot, for even one second, fathom that where we’re headed is not towards positive endgame and the tying up of our love story.

Destiel, to me, is already canon. Subtext is such an important part to any text and absolutely no doubt hands down it’s extremely important to the SPN text.

Dean’s character progression and evolution to where he’s at right now has been built through subtext, and through the deeper subtextual bond he shares with Cas.

What’s telling is that this becomes even clearer when Cas has been missing from the narrative. Dean made leaps and bounds worth of character growth while thinking Cas dead in S7 (Sera knew what she was doing) and we got a sharpened and focused callback to the depiction of that loss in S13. (gorgeous stuff) Not to mention how Dean has acted as a catalyst for Cas’ character progression and evolution.

This is how you build a love story.

And this is why I’ve been saying since last summer that if we don’t get this love story pushed to the forefront in undeniable ways in S13 I will eat that over-priced and not-yet-purchased hat as self-punishment for being crap at interpreting this narrative, but the way S13 is going…

All this stated, yes, of course, if they somehow fail to follow through then it will be the greatest case of queerbaiting in the history of fandom.

But I believe, with every fibre of my being, that they’re following through.

Okay, that got away from me a little, but it was very enjoyable to readdress the issue of SPN and queerbaiting and I’m amazed you remember that post!! Thanks so much for asking, lovely! And I hope I answered your question. :)

#answered asks #spn queerbaiting #destiel #opinion piece #plus a bit of #spn meta #for good measure

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